[EdLUG] Buying a laptop without Windows

Mon Jun 6 13:00:59 UTC 2016

Hi Maxim

On 06/06/16 13:08, Edinburgh Linux Users Group wrote:
> To me the problem is not if Linux is going to become more widespread 
> than WIndows or not. So, it's not a battle, like I want to make 
> vendors produce Linux-laptops. We live in a real world and I 
> understand that it's just a market and at the moment vendors see more 
> benefit from making windows-based models as they're of higher demand.

The problem is not "making Linux more popular" but "remove the Windows 
chokehold" that leads people to even have to ask about how to get a 
non-Windows machine in the first place.

The market desires are expressed by consumers only in knowledge of what 
they can have. So far, the narrative has been pointedly "Windows is the 
only real choice, and there's not reason for you to look elsewhere."

The market is also under the global illusion that you cannot do Real 
Work (TM) without Microsoft Office, or Google Docs, and that a computer 
needs a pre-installed OS to be useful.

> The thing is that they can do it without limiting my rights. However, 
> by not allowing to decline lincense and receive a refund for the 
> windows copy, they are violating customer's rights.

There's also a camp that declares that "we've won" given that Android 
and Chrome OS, both running Linux kernels, are more and more common. 
It's at this point that it would be pointedly appropriate to indicate 
that what we refer to often is GNU/Linux, and it is that specific 
combination that provides us with the freedom and rights we still enjoy.

Chrome OS/Linux does not like you running stuff from outside the Chrome 
walled garden, and OEMs shiping Android/Linux have a nasty habit of 
including apps you cannot uninstall, short of rooting your device and 
voiding your warranty. In short, they intentionally make it hard for you 
to do stuff to get out of their marketing and upsell strategies. I have 
yet to see a GNU/Linux on which you could not simply install and run 
what you wanted, and remove what you did not want.

Should we be asking for refunds on our Chrome OS and Android licenses? 
Probably.

As for why there are still few OEMs shipping computer models both 
Windows and Linux, it's part of the MS licensing deal with the OEMs - 
Microsoft provides an OS to OEMs for little to no cost, allowing the OEM 
to ship an OS on their hardware. Microsoft gets a ubiquitous ecosystem 
out of this.

What the OEMs ship their products with by default is very much tied to 
what rights you can practically enjoy - we wouldn't be having this very 
discussion if it were otherwise... Our rights are still there in Theory, 
but buried under layers of deals, contracts and general customer care 
ignorance.

> I'm not a lawyer, so I cannot say for sure, but.. is it really legal? 
> They bundle a 3rd party product with their one and force a customer to 
> buy it. As soon as it's from a different company and it has its own 
> license agreement, it's still a completely separate product which is 
> not a part of the laptop.

(I'm not a lawyer either, but I have had to look into these matters a 
little to understand what I can and cannot sell to people under Open Source)

All this comes under contract law - you are sold an item under provisio 
of a contract; to get out of that contract, you need to prove that you 
did not, in fact, accept the Microsoft license, hence the step of the 
person who made the store clerk click the Disagree button. Whether you 
are entitled to any form of refund is solely down to the companies, who 
can argue that it was provided at no financial cost anyway.

To stymie competition, the deal also includes a clause whereby if the 
OEM wants to ship an alternative OS on the same product line, Microsoft 
simply charges full whack for the Windows OS. We're still at a point 
where manufacturers care more about selling Windows to consumers, 
because consumers think Windows is the only solution, so OEMs aren't 
interested in paying for the Windows license, and user's aren't 
interested in anything that doesn't ship with the PC.

Catch 22.

>
> If it's not legal to bundle the products withough giving a choice, 
> means that they're breaking the law. I'm not trying to win a battle 
> with MS, I'm trying not to comply with or support law violation
>
> So far, I called Dell and observed that thier staff is not 
> knowledgeable about this at all. They transfered me from Customer Care 
> to Technical Support, then to Sales team and then back, not being able 
> to comment about this situation. Although, there's a clear statement 
> in Windows 10 EULA about possibilty of refunds.
>

You would then have to take it up with Microsoft - it's their EULA, not 
Dell's.

The entire set up is geared towards making you "get on with it".

So to come full circle, this is exactly why we want a freedom-respecting 
operating system - be it Ubuntu, Trisquel, FreeBSD or OpenIndiana, etc - 
to be more prevalent in off-the-shelf products: so we don't have to go 
through this stupid dance every damn time :-)

Cheers

Tai

>
> On 6 Jun 2016, at 12:10, Edinburgh Linux Users Group 
> <edlug at lists.edlug.org.uk <mailto:edlug at lists.edlug.org.uk>> wrote:
>
>> Well I recently bought a new laptop with Windows 10 installed.   For 
>> the first time there was no apparent need to accept anything to start 
>> using Windows 10.   I'm very happy with it (and I must confess I 
>> haven't thrown away the Windows ... call me a traitor if you wish ... )
>>
>> However, I think we are still trying to fight a battle that has 
>> effectively been won on most fronts, and the one which hasn't been 
>> (the desktop) is becoming more and more irrelevant every day with the 
>> movement to mobile devices and the development of browser based 
>> applications to accommodate that.    There are other targets for our 
>> ire, and perhaps more dangerous since in many ways they have "spun" 
>> themselves as being open source friendly but meanwhile keeping our 
>> personal information that they have gathered about us behind a wall 
>> of secrecy.
>>
>> We also aren't dealing with the same Microsoft as before, according 
>> to my observations.   In my particular areas of interest (database 
>> technology and application development tools) we've seen Microsoft 
>> announce or release Linux based products recently, which suggest that 
>> the world is changing.  I recall a (joking) conversation about 5 
>> years ago with some people from Microsoft, when I suggested that I 
>> wanted SQL Server on Linux ... and yet in 2017 we should have exactly 
>> that.  And I don't think this is an attempt at "embrace and extend" 
>> like in the past, but simply a realization that if they want to 
>> compete in the Data Centre they need to offer their key 
>> infrastructure components on the Data Centre platforms of choice.
>>
>> Just my tuppenceworth ...
>>
>> BTW, my new laptop is an Asus X555L, which I got "loaded" for a very 
>> decent price.   Apart from the fact it doesn't have SSD (that was 
>> above the price wanted to pay) I'm very happy with it.   The i5 
>> processor and the 8 gig of RAM were more important to me than the 
>> fast bootup time.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6 June 2016 at 11:59, Edinburgh Linux Users Group 
>> <edlug at lists.edlug.org.uk <mailto:edlug at lists.edlug.org.uk>> wrote:
>>
>>     I have heard good things from system76 computers, pre-installed
>>     with Ubuntu I think, although shipping costs may elevate the
>>     total price.
>>
>>     Regards,
>>     Alejandro
>>
>>>     On 6 Jun 2016, at 11:52, Edinburgh Linux Users Group
>>>     <edlug at lists.edlug.org.uk <mailto:edlug at lists.edlug.org.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     It's actually more expensive to buy a windows-free laptop. The
>>>     licence cost is subsidised by the companies that post Microsoft
>>>     to install all their junk programmes by default.
>>>
>>>     On 6 Jun 2016 11:39, "Edinburgh Linux Users Group"
>>>     <edlug at lists.edlug.org.uk <mailto:edlug at lists.edlug.org.uk>> wrote:
>>>
>>>         Dear LUG members,
>>>
>>>         I'm considering to by a new laptop (macbook died and I'm a
>>>         bit fed up with all the proprietary stuff) and of course I'm
>>>         going to use Linux only on this laptop. The problem is that
>>>         all laptops currently come with windows pre-installed. Even
>>>         if they charge a very small tax for windows, it's my
>>>         principle - I don't agree to pay any single penny to
>>>         microsoft as soon as I'm not going to use their product.
>>>
>>>         The question is: do you by any chance know if it's possible
>>>         to decline their license and get a discount/refund for the
>>>         windows license? If so, what are the best shops/brands who
>>>         make this process easier?
>>>
>>>         Today I tried to call Curry's, but the lady in their call
>>>         centre had no idea about the subject. She also tried to
>>>         convince me that "Windows 10 doesn't offer any license. You
>>>         just buy a laptop and start using it. There's nothing to
>>>         accept or decline"
>>>
>>>         Thanks in advance!
>>>
>>>         Best Regards,
>>>         Maxim
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>>
>>
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