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Hi Maxim<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 06/06/16 13:08, Edinburgh Linux
Users Group wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.856.1465214964.15484.edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
<div>To me the problem is not if Linux is going to become more
widespread than WIndows or not. So, it's not a battle, like I
want to make vendors produce Linux-laptops. We live in a real
world and I understand that it's just a market and at the moment
vendors see more benefit from making windows-based models as
they're of higher demand.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
The problem is not "making Linux more popular" but "remove the
Windows chokehold" that leads people to even have to ask about how
to get a non-Windows machine in the first place.<br>
<br>
The market desires are expressed by consumers only in knowledge of
what they can have. So far, the narrative has been pointedly
"Windows is the only real choice, and there's not reason for you to
look elsewhere."<br>
<br>
The market is also under the global illusion that you cannot do Real
Work (TM) without Microsoft Office, or Google Docs, and that a
computer needs a pre-installed OS to be useful.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.856.1465214964.15484.edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"
type="cite">
<div id="AppleMailSignature">The thing is that they can do it
without limiting my rights. However, by not allowing to decline
lincense and receive a refund for the windows copy, they are
violating customer's rights.<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
There's also a camp that declares that "we've won" given that
Android and Chrome OS, both running Linux kernels, are more and more
common. It's at this point that it would be pointedly appropriate to
indicate that what we refer to often is GNU/Linux, and it is that
specific combination that provides us with the freedom and rights we
still enjoy.<br>
<br>
Chrome OS/Linux does not like you running stuff from outside the
Chrome walled garden, and OEMs shiping Android/Linux have a nasty
habit of including apps you cannot uninstall, short of rooting your
device and voiding your warranty. In short, they intentionally make
it hard for you to do stuff to get out of their marketing and upsell
strategies. I have yet to see a GNU/Linux on which you could not
simply install and run what you wanted, and remove what you did not
want.<br>
<br>
Should we be asking for refunds on our Chrome OS and Android
licenses? Probably.<br>
<br>
As for why there are still few OEMs shipping computer models both
Windows and Linux, it's part of the MS licensing deal with the OEMs
- Microsoft provides an OS to OEMs for little to no cost, allowing
the OEM to ship an OS on their hardware. Microsoft gets a ubiquitous
ecosystem out of this.<br>
<br>
What the OEMs ship their products with by default is very much tied
to what rights you can practically enjoy - we wouldn't be having
this very discussion if it were otherwise... Our rights are still
there in Theory, but buried under layers of deals, contracts and
general customer care ignorance.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.856.1465214964.15484.edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"
type="cite">
<div id="AppleMailSignature">I'm not a lawyer, so I cannot say for
sure, but.. is it really legal? They bundle a 3rd party product
with their one and force a customer to buy it. As soon as it's
from a different company and it has its own license agreement,
it's still a completely separate product which is not a part of
the laptop.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
(I'm not a lawyer either, but I have had to look into these matters
a little to understand what I can and cannot sell to people under
Open Source)<br>
<br>
All this comes under contract law - you are sold an item under
provisio of a contract; to get out of that contract, you need to
prove that you did not, in fact, accept the Microsoft license, hence
the step of the person who made the store clerk click the Disagree
button. Whether you are entitled to any form of refund is solely
down to the companies, who can argue that it was provided at no
financial cost anyway.<br>
<br>
To stymie competition, the deal also includes a clause whereby if
the OEM wants to ship an alternative OS on the same product line,
Microsoft simply charges full whack for the Windows OS. We're still
at a point where manufacturers care more about selling Windows to
consumers, because consumers think Windows is the only solution, so
OEMs aren't interested in paying for the Windows license, and user's
aren't interested in anything that doesn't ship with the PC.<br>
<br>
Catch 22.<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.856.1465214964.15484.edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"
type="cite">
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">If it's not legal to bundle the
products withough giving a choice, means that they're breaking
the law. I'm not trying to win a battle with MS, I'm trying not
to comply with or support law violation</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.856.1465214964.15484.edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"
type="cite">
<div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>
</div>
<div id="AppleMailSignature">So far, I called Dell and observed
that thier staff is not knowledgeable about this at all. They
transfered me from Customer Care to Technical Support, then to
Sales team and then back, not being able to comment about this
situation. Although, there's a clear statement in Windows 10
EULA about possibilty of refunds.<br>
<br>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
You would then have to take it up with Microsoft - it's their EULA,
not Dell's.<br>
<br>
The entire set up is geared towards making you "get on with it".<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
So to come full circle, this is exactly why we want a
freedom-respecting operating system - be it Ubuntu, Trisquel,
FreeBSD or OpenIndiana, etc - to be more prevalent in off-the-shelf
products: so we don't have to go through this stupid dance every
damn time :-)<br>
<br>
<br>
Cheers<br>
<br>
Tai<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.856.1465214964.15484.edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"
type="cite">
<div><br>
On 6 Jun 2016, at 12:10, Edinburgh Linux Users Group <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk">edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk</a></a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Well I recently bought a new laptop with
Windows 10 installed. For the first time there was no
apparent need to accept anything to start using Windows 10.
I'm very happy with it (and I must confess I haven't
thrown away the Windows ... call me a traitor if you wish
... )
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, I think we are still trying to fight a battle
that has effectively been won on most fronts, and the one
which hasn't been (the desktop) is becoming more and more
irrelevant every day with the movement to mobile devices
and the development of browser based applications to
accommodate that. There are other targets for our ire,
and perhaps more dangerous since in many ways they have
"spun" themselves as being open source friendly but
meanwhile keeping our personal information that they have
gathered about us behind a wall of secrecy.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We also aren't dealing with the same Microsoft as
before, according to my observations. In my particular
areas of interest (database technology and application
development tools) we've seen Microsoft announce or
release Linux based products recently, which suggest that
the world is changing. I recall a (joking) conversation
about 5 years ago with some people from Microsoft, when I
suggested that I wanted SQL Server on Linux ... and yet in
2017 we should have exactly that. And I don't think this
is an attempt at "embrace and extend" like in the past,
but simply a realization that if they want to compete in
the Data Centre they need to offer their key
infrastructure components on the Data Centre platforms of
choice.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Just my tuppenceworth ...</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BTW, my new laptop is an Asus X555L, which I got
"loaded" for a very decent price. Apart from the fact it
doesn't have SSD (that was above the price wanted to pay)
I'm very happy with it. The i5 processor and the 8 gig
of RAM were more important to me than the fast bootup
time.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 6 June 2016 at 11:59, Edinburgh
Linux Users Group <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk">edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word">I have heard good
things from system76 computers, pre-installed with
Ubuntu I think, although shipping costs may elevate
the total price.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div>Alejandro</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>On 6 Jun 2016, at 11:52, Edinburgh Linux
Users Group <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"
target="_blank">edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br>
<div>
<p dir="ltr">It's actually more expensive to
buy a windows-free laptop. The licence cost
is subsidised by the companies that post
Microsoft to install all their junk
programmes by default.</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 6 Jun 2016 11:39,
"Edinburgh Linux Users Group" <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk">edlug@lists.edlug.org.uk</a></a>>
wrote:<br type="attribution">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Dear LUG
members,<br>
<br>
I'm considering to by a new laptop
(macbook died and I'm a bit fed up with
all the proprietary stuff) and of course
I'm going to use Linux only on this
laptop. The problem is that all laptops
currently come with windows pre-installed.
Even if they charge a very small tax for
windows, it's my principle - I don't agree
to pay any single penny to microsoft as
soon as I'm not going to use their
product.<br>
<br>
The question is: do you by any chance know
if it's possible to decline their license
and get a discount/refund for the windows
license? If so, what are the best
shops/brands who make this process easier?<br>
<br>
Today I tried to call Curry's, but the
lady in their call centre had no idea
about the subject. She also tried to
convince me that "Windows 10 doesn't offer
any license. You just buy a laptop and
start using it. There's nothing to accept
or decline"<br>
<br>
Thanks in advance!<br>
<br>
Best Regards,<br>
Maxim<br>
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